Bryant’s Anniversary Series, Part 12: Later Interview with Avery — Admits Shooting Sally on the Bed!

Martin and John, 20 years after the offending interview

by Mary W Maxwell

Two months ago, Gumshoe published a 1996 interview that took place just as John Avery was taking over from David Gunson as attorney on the Port Arthur case. That article was aptly entitled “Every Aussie Lawyer Needs To Attend to the Gross Injustice of this Interview.”

On that occasion, John Avery clearly tried to suppress Bryant’s desire for a trial. But today we publish another chat between Bryant and Avery — with a very different tone. Here the prisoner cooperates with Avery in discussing how to tell the Court that he now remembers killing all those people!

As this is the third time Gumshoe readers have seen Bryant talking about the April 28, 1996 massacre, let me enumerate:

First, the Mike Willessee show this year surprised everyone by showing a supposedly lost or unusable video in which Bryant sits in front of a blue curtain being questioned by the police.

Martin answered all the police’s questions consistently. He eagerly described his handling of guns. He recalled his itinerary of April 28, which included surfing at Roaring Beach and dropping by Seascape but finding no one home.  Gumshoe published a large portion of that July 4, 1996 police interview.

Second, I learned that in 2006 The Bulletin had – as a “tenth anniversary of Port Arthur” reminder — published, unethically, the chat that took place when Solicitor Avery was “deciding” whether to “accept” Martin as a client.

(That’s the “gross injustice” interview.) I had no qualms about presenting it to the public, contra the man’s right to privacy, as it needs to be studied.

Third, I read in Stewart Beattie’s A Gunsmith’s Notebook, that there was a subsequent “consultation” between Avery and Martin. It is shown below, unabridged. It took place only eight days after the gross-injustice interview. Avery visits Bryant at Risdon and at this point Bryant appears to be almost a “new man.”

Bryant has come around to the idea that he did it, even saying it was thrilling, and amazes us all by saying that he and Glen Pears had talked all night at Seascape. Martin confesses that he killed Glen at about 6am Monday. Note: Beattie points out that there was never a report of the sound of a gun at 6am.

Please read this chat, dated October 11, 1996,  with the possibility in mind that a team of doctors put Bryant under hypnosis and fed him some “new memories.” Recall from “the fodder note” that being drugged and hypnotized was nothing new for Martin.

MB (Martin Bryant): I did do some drawings. Are they large enough do you think?

JWA (John W Avery): Well let’s have a look. Right, so what’s this one?

MB: There’s the … at Dunalley

JWA: Right.

MB: And that’s where I did my target shooting usually between Murdunna and Eaglehawk Neck

JWA: Right, right.

MB: I found that important. Well, this is more important isn’t it, where the Martins, where the Seascape Guest House is

JWA: Right, so this is the Seascape Guest House here

MB: Yep, that’s the top, that’s where Pears was, there

JWA: Right

MB: The Police allege that I was shooting out at them, I can’t recall

JWA: Doing that

MB: No, no not at all

JWA: Right, okay, the Fox and Hounds

MB: The Fox and Hounds, that’s the car that was parked near the main house, the Seascape Guest House and there’s the two smaller houses on the property

JWA: Right, so this is just an exploded version of this, is it?

MB: Yep, and that’s the Martins. That’s where I shot them, on the bed.

JWA: Right, right, okay, well that’s fine, and this is the…

MB: Are they big enough?

JWA: Yep, yep, no they’re fine

MB: And another thing, I don’t know how…the recording was last time but I said something about a bus, I remember shooting people around the bus but I don’t recall going on the bus

JWA: You don’t recall going on the bus? Alright so, okay…

MB: And I recall um shooting people in the cafeteria but I don’t recall injuring anyone at all

JWA: Right, alright.

MB: I recall them dying

JWA: Alright, okay, well that’s fine. Well, I’ll take those with me. Just to bring you up to date mate, I’m going to Melbourne to have a talk with Paul Mullen, remember Professor Mullen

MB: Oh yeah, you haven’t been yet?

JWA: No

MB: I thought you were going on Wednesday

JWA: No, I’m going next Wednesday

MB: Oh yeah, next Wednesday

JWA: To see him and Ian Joblin

MB: Yeah, he’s a lovely person

JWA: You got on alright with him?

MB: Yeah

JWA: I think they may want to see you again, so I’ll have a talk to the Trustees about that

MB: Oh good

JWA: You’re happy to see them again?

MB: Oh yes

JWA: And basically tell them what you’ve told me

MB: Yep

JWA: Alright, well we’ll see if we can sort that out. You asked me about Julian

MB: Knight, yes

JWA: I understand he pleaded guilty to those charges, right

MB: Hm

JWA: What else to bring you up to date. I’m going to see the Director of Public Prosecutions next Thursday to discuss matters with him, so I’ll come and see you next Thursday after I’ve done … and after I’ve been to the Crown, alright!

MB: Yeah, oh good.

JWA: So that will just bring things up to date

MB: That’s Damien Bugg isn’t it?

JWA: Yes, the Director of Public Prosecutions is Damien Bugg

MB: Yeah, yeah. I saw Damien Bugg on the day I went to Court.

JWA: Right, yeah, so that’s really about where we’re at at the moment

MB: Right

JWA: I did try and contact your Mum but I just got an answering machine

MB: Yeah, she’s got an answering machine

JWA: So, I’ve left a message for her to give me a hoy sometime, if she wants to, or whether she will

MB: She put an answering machine on since the incident

JWA: Right

MB: So … the reporters

JWA: Right, she was getting hassled was she

MB: (indecipherable)

JWA: Not any more

MB: So you talked to them

JWA: I spoke to them and there hasn’t been a problem since

MB: Are they down there now?

JWA: No

MB: I think they were there last week for a few days

JWA: They were I think the second time I saw you, or the first time, but no, they’re not anymore, so there’s no…

MB: Oh, I suppose they’ll show in Court, show the guns and things like that

JWA: Well, I mean obviously that’s part of the evidence you know, they they will have to go through. What … what’s your current feeling as to how you want to plead? Have you given any further thought to that in recent times?

MB: I don’t really know. Can I still plead not guilty?

JWA: Well, you can, but I mean given what you’ve told me, the reality is …

MB: On some charges I can plead guilty to and some not, am I allowed to do that?

JWA: Well you can plead to some and not guilty to others. What sort of ones do you think that you might want to plead not guilty to?

MB: To the ones, to the injured

JWA: The injured people

MB: ‘Cos they’re the ones …(indecipherable)

JWA: Right, right.

MB: I don’t recall. All I can recall is people sitting down in the cafeteria

JWA: Just keep your voice up mate

MB: I don’t recall anyone running out

JWA: Right

MB: Just the people that I’ve shot, sitting down

JWA: Right

MB: And they all just died

JWA: Right, right

MB: I don’t recall anyone …

JWA: So what you’re saying, you accept that you killed people but you don’t think you injured, or you don’t remember injuring people?

MB: I don’t remember injuring

JWA: Other than the ones that you killed

MB: That’s right.

JWA: Yeah. Alright, well we don’t have to worry about that at the moment.

MB: Yep

JWA: As I say, it’s just a matter of just taking it step by step

MB: Hm

JWA: The other thing I just wanted to ask you, I think I did talk to you last time about this. How long do you think looking back in your mind now, you’d been planning this?

MB: Oh, about 1-2 years

JWA: 1-2 years. Had you ever sort of had a dummy run before or almost got to doing it before?

MB: No never

JWA: No

MB: Its only been past … or since after Christmas this year

JWA: Right, that you seriously thought about it or seriously started thinking about it?

MB: Yeah

JWA: What did you think you were going to get out of it. I mean you must have known you were going to get caught.

MB: Oh, just going out and killing people

JWA: Yeah, but I mean when you thought you wanted to do that did you also think well I know I’ll get caught or did you think you’d get killed or what did you think?

MB: I thought I’d either get caught or get killed and I thought killing the Martins

JWA: Just a bit louder

MB: I thought that if I killed the Martins I would go to jail for life, right.

JWA: Yeah

MB: And I thought, well if I kill a lot of people it really won’t make much of a difference

JWA: In other words if you kill 10, its not much difference as far as the time in jail to killing one person

MB: That’s right

JWA: Hm.    What was the motivating thing though to kill anyone. Just looking back, I mean was it for pleasure?

MB: I just wanted to kill the Martins because I didn’t like them … When I was a child they gave me a bad time

JWA: Yeah.   So it was the Martins that you really wanted to get!

MB: Yes

JWA: The others….

MB: I hated them

JWA: Right, you hated them. Was there anyone else you hated?

MB: No, no-one. No-one’s been bad to me, just … mainly Mrs Martin that I wanted to kill but I thought I’d kill Mr. Martin while I was there

JWA: But you were conscious were you, when you were thinking of that and planning to do that, that you’d get caught? Or did you ever seriously think you’d get away with it?

MB: I thought they’d shoot me or I’d get caught and go to jail, either one

JWA: Yeah, so…

MB: At the time it wasn’t in my mind

JWA: Right, What are you going to do for the rest of your life here?

MB: I don’t really know. Just live day by day. I don’t know.

JWA: How are you occupying yourself at the moment?

MB: Drawings, sleeping

JWA: Right

MB: That’s about it

JWA: Right, now you’ve done some drawings for me, did you enjoy doing that?

MB: Yeah, they’re good, yeah

JWA: So do you want me to get you some more, have you got plenty of …

MB: I’ve got plenty of paper

JWA: Well, alright, why don’t you keep doing some. Even if it’s only just therapy for you and you know do some bigger scale ones if you want to

MB: Right, of this?

JWA: Yeah, or anything

MB: Are they big enough?

JWA: Yeah, that’s fine but if you want to do bigger ones, why don’t you just do some of what you … of anything

MB: Yeah, do you ever do any scuba diving?

JWA: I don’t. I’ve got a few friends who do. I’ve got a watch, its a diver’s watch

MB: That’s an underwater one, I can tell

JWA: Yeah, but no I don’t. That’s obviously something that’s been pretty important to you

MB: Yeah, I used to do a lot of scuba diving

JWA: Remember when we spoke last time I asked you what you felt like when you were killing those people. Remember you said that it was…

MB: Exciting

JWA: Exciting, and …

MB: Thrilling

JWA: And you likened it to driving your boat fast, and

MB: Scuba diving

JWA: Was that how it was?

MB: Yes, it was, truly exciting, really exciting

JWA: Yeah

MB: The most exciting thing I’ve ever done in my life which was something different

JWA: Yeah

MB: Just shooting the people.

JWA: And did it really just get out of hand. I mean, you obviously didn’t plan to shoot 30 people. When you decided you were going to shoot the Martins, how many people did you think after that or was there no thought process, just …

MB: Um, no thought … I don’t think it was a thought, no thought process. I just thought I’d go out and kill a lot of people

JWA: Did you physically know by the time you were back at Seascape how many people had been killed?

MB: Quite a few, but

JWA: Yeah

MB: I thought I’d killed a dozen or so

JWA: So you thought you’d killed a dozen or so, yeah

MB: I didn’t think I’d killed 20

JWA: You didn’t

MB: No

JWA: No, no. Do you want to tell me anything at the moment. I mean today’s just an easy day. I didn’t want to have to burden you with

MB: No …you’ll get on well with Professor Mullen

JWA: Right. How did you find the other fellow, Lucas?

MB: The one from Adelaide?

JWA: Yes

MB: Are you going over there?

JWA: No, I’m not going to see him, no

MB: He’s not worth seeing, he’s got a ….(indecipherable)

JWA: Has he

MB: I didn’t think he was much at all. I didn’t like him.

JWA: Right.

MB: He was a criminologist, I think

JWA: Was he

MB: I think that’s what you call him. I don’t think he was a Psychiatrist, just a …

JWA: No

MB: But Mr Joblin, he’s great, so’s Professor Mullen

JWA: Right

MB: Great people to talk to

JWA: And you’d be happy to see them again

MB: Oh yes, anytime. Hm. But I don’t think much of Dr. Sale either

JWA: Right

MB: Have you met Dr Sale?

JWA: Yes I know him, little fellow isn’t he

MB: Yeah, he works for the Prosecution. I don’t think he’s got his own private…

JWA: Oh, he’s in private practice but he does a lot of work for the Crown, so … but anyway Ian Joblin and Paul Mullen, you’re happy about them

MB: Yep, oh yeah. He came to see me twice actually, Dr. Sale

JWA: Right

MB: He mentioned to me that I pointed to myself in that video interview

JWA: Right

MB: He has this…(indecipherable) and I said what, did I do that, did I point to myself…(indecipherable) that was a ball’s up wasn’t it – what I had done then

JWA: Yeah, can’t be helped now, that’s water under the bridge

MB: Yeah, right, yeah

JWA: Well what we’ll work along is this. We’ll work along the basis that you’re probably going to have to plead guilty to the people you’ve killed, right. We’ll look at the other aspect later.

MB: What, to all them

JWA: Well, I mean realistically I think, but

MB: Hm

JWA: So we haven’t got to make that decision today

MB: Hm

JWA: Because I think you know as well as I do that I think you’re going to be convicted of that, don’t you

MB: (laughter) – yeah that’s right

JWA: And there’s no sort of sense us thinking we can pull rabbits out of the hat

MB: Will you actually, um, then make a statement in writing to that, or what happens?

JWA: Well, I mean it depends on which way we end up going right. If you were to plead guilty right, what happens there is the Crown still have to put a lot of evidence before the Court to tell the Court what happened. I mean we all know what happened, the world knows, but the Court has to be formally told that and what we would have to do then, you and I, is work out what I’d say on your behalf

MB: Yep

JWA: Now you could tell the world through me whatever you want to about it or you could say like some people in this situation “I’m not going to say anything”

MB: What happens there?

JWA: Well I mean, the penalty is going to be very obvious

MB: It’ll take longer

JWA: Whatever we say right or don’t say but all I’m saying you might want the world to know what motivated you to do this or you may not. You may say well I want everyone to know. That’s something you’ve got to think on – whether you want me to tell all the world what you’ve told me. You may say no John that’s between you and me and you might say…

MB: But they’ll have to get witnesses to any injured … some of the injured victims

JWA: Yeah, I mean certainly if it gets to that they will have to call some witnesses. In fact, I’m going to talk to the Crown on Thursday as to that right

MB: And people on the bus ’cos I didn’t go on the bus. I don’t recall going on the bus and the bloke that lived that was shot through the neck -yeah I don’t believe any of that, that that actually occurred

JWA: But how would it, I mean if it didn’t occur clearly they must have got injured by someone mustn’t they

MB: They must have

JWA: And there wasn’t anyone but Martin Bryant walking around was there

MB: No

JWA: So, you know, you’re the fellow in the long coat

MB: I’m not sorry now that I didn’t kill people

JWA: I know you’re not sorry, I’m not going to ask you if you’re sorry ‘cos I know you’re not are you?

MB: No. I’m in here and they’re looking after me well and, … they’re ear-wigging now

JWA: That can’t be helped

MB: That’s right

JWA: Look the last thing I’m ever going to say to you is are you sorry ‘cos I know you’re not, are you?

MB: No

JWA: You’re not going to con me and say you’re sorry for what you did, are you

MB: No, I’m not

JWA: In fact, I suspect you’re pleased

MB: Um, I’m excited, yeah

JWA: Does it still give you some excitement as to what you did?

MB: Yeah, I don’t know. I might come out in Court and tell everyone what happened. I don’t know. I might be the best thing to do, mightn’t it?

JWA: We’ll worry about that later right. That’s something you and I have to work through, right. As to whether you say it or I say it on your behalf

MB: Exactly, it might upset the people more if I say it

JWA: Well it might. I mean it might be more diplomatic for me to tell the world what you want to say rather than see you smiling and grinning and you know …

MB: Yeah, I might let them know (laughter)

JWA: You might have someone jump over that glass cage to get you

MB: (laughter) I don’t think so, no. One bloke came up … I suppose you heard about one bloke stood up and said I’m a coward

JWA: That was Mr. Pears’ brother wasn’t it?

MB: Who

JWA: Pears’ brother

MB: Was he one of the …

JWA: He was the one who sang out at you

MB: Mr Pear’s brother – oh it was his brother was it?

JWA: Yes. You know Pears was the last guy you shot.

 MB: Yes, was it him?

JWA: Yes, it was his brother

MB: Oh, I thought it might have been Mr. ? He was the first in the Broad Arrow and he gave a …(indecipherable)

 JWA: About what time, just changing the subject, about what time would it have been when Mr Pears was shot. Would it have been after midnight. He was the last one you shot, wasn’t it?

MB: It would have been about 6 o’clock that morning.

JWA: Just before you set fire to it right

MB: Yes

JWA: Right, so he was up all night with you

MB: He was up all night

JWA: What did you talk about.  Did you talk to him much?

MB: Just … I don’t think he mentioned that he had any brothers or sisters, I don’t think

JWA: Did you tell him you were going to shoot him?

MB: No I didn’t say anything. I don’t even know where I shot him now

JWA: Right

MB: ‘Cos there was a lot of ammunition

JWA: Alright, anything else you want to tell me today?

MB: No, I can’t think of anything else.  What’s the weather like outside?

JWA: Pissing with rain

MB: Oh gosh! Have you still got your Mercedes?

JWA: Yes

MB: Yeah, its a white one isn’t it?

JWA: How did you know I had that?

MB: Oh, you used to drive around – I used to see you driving around in it

JWA: A little white sports one

MB: Yeah, and your wife had the station … van didn’t she?

JWA: Oh yes, that’s years ago

MB: I think it’s a Holden Station Wagon

JWA: Yeah, yeah. She remembers you up at Peter and Michael’s shop

MB: Yeah

JWA: The Greeks on the corner, there

MB: Peter always used to have children. They used to become … his wife always used to have children, always look down and say\

JWA: All girls

MB: All girls

JWA: That’s right yes. Yeah, they’ve just come back from a holiday. They went to Queensland.

MB: Oh, right.

JWA: I’ll give him your regards

MB: Oh good. Okay then

JWA: Okay, well let’s leave it at that. You keep on with the drawings. Anything you want to do, right!

MB: Okay

JWA: Because I’m sure that well even if its only for therapy, they’re useful. I’ll find it useful

MB: I know

JWA: And I’ll be back here next Thursday afternoon 

MB: Good

JWA: And I’ll see Professor Mullen and Ian Joblin and I’ll have a talk to you then, about them, and also about witnesses and this sort of thing

MB: Allright

JWA:  Okay, keep your chin up mate I’ll see you then alright.

[All emphasis added]

Photo credits:
Martin Bryant -- cdn.newsapi.com.au
John Avery -- abc.net.au